(c) If conduct constituting an offense under this section also constitutes an offense under another . 3. Happy with my old S&W revolvers, 3rd Gen S&W pistols,1911s and a slew of P226s. That focus drifts. These cops seem pretty dang stupid if they put loaded guns in gym bags and purses with other stuff and carry them around, especially a gun that lacks manual safeties. Not only is it now the designated sidearm of all branches of the U.S. military, there are over a million of them in civilian hands. There was no holster involved. How many times does a pistol have to malfunction before you blame it? No picture for me. Canadian Special Forces Command has not said what caused the gun to go off unexpectedly, but the company said a conclusion has been reached. I can say we are aware of the statement released by SIG SAUER, said Maj. Amber Bineau. On the other hand, would we also condemn him for violating Rule 2 if the bullet had travelled through his outside wall, entered the adjacent house, and killed a resident thereof, or would we maybe, just maybe, place some blame on the manufacturer who created the pistol? Capitol Police Officers Explanation for Shooting and Killing Ashli Babbitt Is Riddled With Problems, The City of Wichita Raked In Almost $200,000 Selling Seized Guns in the Last Five Years, State Judge Issues Order Blocking Enforcement of Illinois Firearms Ban Act Statewide, Federal Judge Grants Injunction Blocking Enforcement of ATFs Frame or Receiver Rule, Illinois Rep. Bob Morgan: Anything Stamped M&P is a Weapon of War, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ZZ6pynGLM, https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/dea-agent-lee-paige-still-wont-go-away/, https://sofrep.com/news/dod-evaluation-says-armys-new-sig-sauer-p320-service-pistol-riddled-issues/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0LUbLu6TqA, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsu6WsSQ2_g, https://millsentertainment.smugmug.com/William-Shatner-The-Wrath-of-Khan. (It wasnt my gun). When he opened the drawer the hinges pulled the Charters trigger. The thing is, youd probably need to generate many Gs of force in both directions simultaneously. As far as ships go, Im drawn to the original movie vessels because they look the most, to me, like something youd really see humans build in space in 300 years. If the latter were to occur, the drop safety would prevent discharge because it would not be pushed up by anything. As for the Serpa holster, this is a bunch of internet echo chamber BS that originated with Obama-era federal agencies putting a bad light on a good product in order to sway public opinion and thus damage the manufacturers bottom line. Some of the plaintiffs claim the pistol can fire without the trigger even being touched. Was it his fault? The truth is the absolute WORST semi-autos that Sig, H&K, Walther, Beretta or Glock makes today are more reliable than the best semi-autos made 40 years ago, by far. Second, every gun maker has made lemons in the past. Dont care for them, not my jam. Is there any major military anywhere that ever issued one of their guns? , 54 people all shooting themselves. It did not originally have this. Much has been made of Nimoys Spock being the most popular character in TOS, but Id argue that without Shatners over-the-top swagger and brash manner, the balance would be lost. Good job! In the former case, you would need upward movement coming to a sudden stop to bump up the drop safety at the same time you imparted rearward momentum to the gun to try and move the striker. The more someone touches, loads, clears, cleans, holsters, un-holsters, or otherwise deals with their firearm, the higher the statistical likelihood that complacence kicks in. Glocks biggest problem is they havent innovated since 1985. When he put his hand on the grip, the weapon fired, according to the lawsuit. My trust for Sig stopped after they produced the beloved Sig556xi Russian. Anyway around here they do. It seems safe to assume that while SIG is coming up fast on the outside, GLOCK is still most likely the reigning champ in terms of the firearms most often carried by law enforcement and other government agencies. You have entered an incorrect email address! Im more of a DS9 guy. Sound familiar? Its also interesting that theres apparently no corresponding flood of civilian lawsuits against SIG with similar claims of guns going off, even though the public owns far more P320s than do law enforcement agencies. They wouldnt have adopted it if was. Over the top, hammy and with incredible choleric energy, but as he once said, when you trying to seriously sell a scene that has space ship with obvious carboard walls, christmas lights and a guy in a rubber gorilla suit with a plastic horn on its head, if you play it lowkey youre dead the audience is gonna focus on how cheesy it all is. You simply may not PREFER one make to another, or may simply dislike another make, but were to the point in semi-auto pistol production history where amongst the big brands, the only real distinctions are preference. So far I have only heard of one instance (post fix) where there was an ND and the post mortem on the gun demonstrating a mechanical failure. In 2020, the agent, who is a former marine, was doing his routine training with the P320. They both underwent full testing but while the Sig was the cheaper handgun ($1.50), it also quoted higher costs for magazines and spare parts, boosting the overall cost of the acquisition. Police officers (maybe) do an annual qualification and thats it. The SIG will be the shortest military contract for guns in history. This leads me to conclude that the problem is not the gear but the moron using it. Bagnell said he thinks the discharges are due to both design and manufacturing flaws on SIGs part. My bet would be that someone had a fully loaded gun in a gym bag and a cloth or rag snagged the trigger. You should always use a real holster, or carry it condition 3 or 4 if its off-body. After watching a friend get killed by a Remington 700 by another friend and the ensuing fallout 31 years ago I decided that I didnt care if the P320 was fixed, it was getting sold. Trust a P365 with your life. Personally they should have gone with the Glock, its not for me but is a proven gun. They are being replaced with Glocks. Someone is going to read this thread and be bewildered. This gun had been voluntary upgraded. Its hard to say yet but with anything follow the basic safety rules. Profits over reliability and you end up with junk. 2. Sigs suck and my Glock is awesome!. LOL! To be sure, Ive informally asked every other owner of a Serpa holster when I meet them, whether they have ever had an ND because of the holster. A fellow kept his DA revolver in the desk. I have no idea. The claim basically boils down to the notion that in normal, unconcerning operation, a foreign body entered the striker body. never got into the P320 It is to me a Range gun not a carry gun. Both companies, instead, took to pro-gun industry forums to offer a rebuttal, giving no opportunity to answer questions. Lastly, ship-wise I have to go with the TMP-era refit Enterprise, regardless of Captain. Neither argument is relevant or very intelligent and certainly not useful. In my opinion, the only reason SIG would have done that is if they knew there was a safety problem with the original gun, otherwise they would not have done it., Scott says Harrison reviewed the claims in Officer Hiltons lawsuit and said, its unclear to (Harrison) what could now be causing misfires in the upgraded guns., Scott then asked Harrison if he believes the P320 should be removed from the marketplace. is the manual safety a kit you add? Whether or not the suits have merit. Clients such as law enforcement officers whose negligent discharges could result in their being disciplined or fired unless it can be proven that the gun was at fault. Where is this lightning striking twice? This subject has two prongs; One is the negligence of those who have shot themselves with 320s through violations of Rule 2, the other the possible mechanical design failing of the gun. So are dumb(or arrogant) cops. Just because someone shoots hyper-unrealistic 3 gun competition, subscribes to Recoil magazine and routinely watches their fave rave YouTube cult of personality channel shill for the latest company that paid him off doesnt make them a [emailprotected]$$. Use a proper holster and follow other gun safety protocols. Theyve now come to the attention of the legacy media. Nope. . I can say one thing for sure, the X on the side of the my is about is welcoming to me as grip zone was. No, it doesnt. Charlton, headquartered in Victoria, B.C., for comment on its original story, but neither responded. It has been flawless so far. . Bagnells and other lawsuits ABC claims at least 54 discharges and 10 suits against SIG describe instances of P320s going off dating back to 2016, prior to the upgrade. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0LUbLu6TqA, Simply put, the P320 is not safe and the lawsuits arent frivolous. Everyone remembers the problems the Beretta M9 had, but it got sorted and they went on to serve over 30 years. To put it simply, they are expensive cheaply made junk. Sig makes a damn fine weapon and theres nothing wrong with it. Ironic that the trendsetters of yesteryear are trying to tear down the innovator of today because its Not perfected yet! and the Design isnt worked out!. And many departments across the country have had to lower their standards for passing qualifications just to be able to hire on and keep officers. How about something more relevant. No you haters are not smarter than the US military, who tested the P320 far more than your favorite YouTuber ever did. Really, that JJA ship looks like something the folks at PlaySkool built, its terrible. Likewise, having a finger in the trigger-guard, or a clothing draw-string, or a retention strap, or some other object, when holstering the gun exonerates the maker, as the gun is firing with a trigger press of sufficient energy and stroke as designed. 1.A rush to market, and as usual the blind greed of the gun companies who no longer test pistols before marketing them think it is cheaper (so the idiots think) to let the public test them. Which in and of itself is user error / misuse. COPYRIGHT 2021, THETRUTHABOUTGUNS.COM. Fair enough. ), and the gun fell out of his pocket. I have almost a hatred for Glocks but the one thing that they are is reliable. The company didnt want to comment on any specific pending litigation for obvious reasons. If you can make the trigger move backwards, all bets are off. And on the flip side of the coin is the decades of denial by Remington on the 700 which Ive seen firsthand. The Government mandated it to be made more safe to use and was. On February 19, 2021, Military.com reported: A former U.S. Marine and federal agent has filed a $10 million lawsuit against Sig Sauer Inc. alleging that his holstered Sig P320 a pistol that the Army's new sidearm is based on accidentally discharged, firing a 9mm bullet into his right leg. People who know how to handle guns prudently and safely. Not much detail is provided in any of those other claimed incidents, but a few stand out. Have you ever noticed that big trouble usually comes in groups of 3. Where is that defect now? The Defiant regardless of who is the captain. This is why we now have back up safeties on garden tractors and riding lawn mowers. Training and experience are not a talisman that magically prevents accidents. So I think it is unconscionable, given the number of incidents of this gun defectively discharging without a trigger pull, would necessitate that someone order it to be recalled and only SIG can do that.. The cost of settlements will be passed on to us. I think in the end even if there is no mechanical defect (dont hold your breath) it will be found that the Sig is causing accidental discharges for the same reason the Glock does, because if you snag the trigger on the Sig model that does not have a manual safety (some do) the gun will accidentally fire. And people have a way of looking for ways to deflect blame for those discharges, especially when they stand to lose their job as a result. Effectively: you must be this dumb to get this job. Ive seen similar situations at our Municipal range. Note that Harrisons comment about these claims possibly being the result of legal momentum were edited out of the longer Nightline version of the report. On Nov. 5, 2020, a recently-purchased SIG Sauer P320 pistol went off unexpectedly at a training range in Dwyer Hill, outside of Ottawa. Im not even sure I would do that with my 92 or something else that can be both decocked and locked. A few Warbirds decloaking would make me very nervous if it wasnt sci-fi fantasy. Theyre cheering for a noose around their own precious Glocks throat. That is the point of most of the video at the end of the article. And as far as Special Forces go, SF going to Glock has been documented as a bean counters solution to save money. The fact is that the plaintiffs will get paid regardless of who did what. They passed every state and national drop test requirement out there. DND/CAF is not in a position at this stage in its investigation to offer insight into the potential causes because our investigation scope is broader than the technical aspect pertaining to the unintended discharge of the pistol.. Again, these are examples the plaintiff in this case is using to support his claim that the P320 is prone to un-commanded discharges.. Have you ever put a handgun down with your palm in front of the muzzle? Right up front, the use of an ill-fitting/improper-for-the-gun holster instantly negates any idea of an unintended discharge being the fault of the design. . People of the Gun are probably familiar with the early problems the P320 had regarding drop safety. The fact that Shatner was doing Wrath of Kahn meet and greets at 90 years old kind of soured me. Withe the P320 Sigs contract was $169.5 million, $103 million cheaper then Glock. These suits allege that their ultra-popular P320 pistol can fire without the trigger being pulled. Why you and I are arguing over a gun that neither owns or will own, Search Texas Statutes. So, unlike the Serpa holster debate, Im a believer that there is more going on than meets the eye with the P320 and is exactly why I refrained from buying one, why I still wont own one, and why I steer people away from it. While it seems that I have a preference for battle ships, The Romulans had Warbirds. The moral of all of this is the reason Sig got the military contract was because they were selling guns at close to cost, they underbid Glock by a significant margin. The claimed mode of failure was that the tab on the drop safety that interferes with the striker movement had been sheered off and stopped being a drop safety. D. All chasing that pot of gold at the end of litigation.. Not that big of a stretch when considering the lawyers beating the bushs for clients to add to the lawsuits, and the fact many of them will lose their jobs if its proven to NOT be the gun, but instead negligence on their part. Maybe in South America a poor military did, but thatd be about it. The design was incorporated from Bruce Grays trigger kit around the time of the original drop safety fix. Using an example from the first prong, we legitimately fault the user who shot himself in the palm, rightfully asking why in the WORLD his palm was in front of the muzzle when he set the gun down. This is the only post fix tale of p320 failure I have heard that is not some form of but it just went off, I didnt do nutthin! Aint been nothing but problems since the military dropped the 1911, what was it 85 year of trusted service? The SIG P320, which has been manufactured since 2014, is known to go off without the trigger being pulled if it's dropped and lands on the ground at a certain angle. These officers are not gunfighters. A lot like carrying a cocked and locked 1911 but with the safety off. What I can say is that article reads like a hit piece on the individuals who may or may not of made mistakes with their firearms from someone who worships at the alter of sig. You clanging a bell that went silent years ago. Yesterday, a Canadian news outlet, CBC News, published a story regarding the unintended discharge last year of a SIG P320 by a Canadian Special Operator, resulting in injury and his unit withdrawing the pistol from service. If the military was going to go cheap then they should have thrown Taurus into the mix. Hey, Im sitting here staring at my P320, waiting for it to go bang! Yes, but that did not mean the machine would be able to go on being marketed like that. It provides another example of how the gun free zone purportedly keeps people safe by not only keeping guns away, but by requiring more discharges nearby. Sig Sauer P220 Super Match. Its pathetic how often these legal stunts work. But were way past the days of major league, internationally known gunmakers turning out complete crap, selling it and the public living with it. Having it as the ONLY trigger pull the weapon has seems (to me) clearly dangerous. He points to it in the video. Had a buddy, years ago, that was a deputy for Orange County in California. Rather, it's because those LEO P320 pistols are seeing much more physical action than ones carried by civilians. I could care but that came at the expense of reliability and safety. They have hundreds of thousands of P320s in regular service now and, despite a search, we couldnt find a rash of reports of soldiers claiming their pistols are firing on their own. The pistol is popular with commercial gun owners and law enforcement south of the border. The incident with the P320 - a contender for a major Canadian Armed Forces procurement of thousands of pistols and holsters that has a Aug. 3 deadline for industry proposals - occurred at JTF-2's Dwyer Hill training range just west of Ottawa. The best take on this subject is by the author himself: this is about slime lawyers looking to build a national narrative and get a few wins in, so they can more easily get the next win and the next one, the next one and so on. The suit mirrors lawsuits filed across the country involving the semi-automatic gun known as the P320. Trigger is lighter than the Glock, it took years of aggressive training to reach the point of acceptable discharges with the Glock. You did get to sit and watch it with him, which leads to a serious question. Its also beyond debate that current production Sig quality is drastically inferior to what it once was, particularly the German made pieces. In this version, Bridge City Officer Brittany Hilton tells her story of what she says happened when her P320 discharged as she was carrying it in her purse in what appears to be a SERPA holster (which has had its own problems, but thats another story). Id read that for TMP, they got NASA to help in the design of the refit Enterprise. Time will tell if no. It takes time for any new platform to work the kinks out. NEWINGTON - A Hillsboro man is suing Newington gunmaker Sig Sauer alleging his Sig P320 pistol fired, without him pulling the trigger, causing a bullet to be discharged into his thigh. Maybe its a technical issue, maybe its a training issue. SIG is choosing to litigate their problems away. Yaaay! I went to an outdoor public range with a local SWAT entry team leader. The problem was strikers. But hey, in ruthless, lawless, Capitalvania were life is considered cheap and expendable no one gives a shit, especially the Far Right that screams about abortions and then kills off the children that were not aborted with loaded guns laying around the house. In 1974 if you bought a Colt 1911, you left the gun store and then immediately took it to your favorite gunsmith and said Make it work it with Super-Vels, please. You cant get away with that today. Ron, With Biden spending outrageous amounts of money, whats 100 million here or there? I didnt even touch it! The linkage isnt, but the way the striker leg and sear face mate up, the two materials being MIM castings, the small camming action, etc. ! while being accompanied by some form of obvious stupidity like putting an unholstered gun in a gym bag with other stuff. Hammer guns have a half cock notch for a reason. Theres a couple of possibilities. But that's not working in the P320, he said. abprototype.com can add the manual safety as well as add the notches in the grip frame. Heres the version that ran Tuesday morning during the networks Good Morning America program . 3) If the sear fails, there is the drop safety in the way of the striker. I bought a P320 and went through the voluntary upgrade. 2) The p320 does have a half cocked notch. Oh, if you another thread reader asking Wheres the Sig/Glock bashing? What a wonderful parody of a MAC cultist! My gun just went off! Sounds like these officers and others are attempting to cover their posteriors. Everyone remember the video of the DEA agent shooting himself while explaining that he was highly qualified to carry a gun? So if, say, a person was to accidentally get shot through no fault of their own and need to sue, which specific cartridge/appendage combo would yield the most favorable least pain/permanent-damage : highest-payout ratio?